Maria (00:00.684)
Hello, RuPaul, and welcome to the My Local Marketer podcast. Thank you so much for coming on. How are you doing? Really, really well. Thank you so much for having me. my pleasure. Now, if you're watching the video version of this, then we are in the Thames Lido, which is amazing. We've just had lunch, haven't we, in the restaurant? We sure have. Yeah, so recommend you come on down here. So for our listeners who don't know who you are, RuPaul, could you please tell us a little bit about yourself?

This is always the worst question, not because I don't enjoy answering it, it's such a big question and I don't wanna waffle on as I am right now. About myself, so I'm a born and New Yorker, I've been living in the UK for 13 years now and here in the greater Reading area for the past six.

I first moved here for work, so my previous life was in the world of intelligence, and I know we're gonna be going into that a bit, but moved here while I was still working at the CIA and then went back to America, quit my job and then moved here permanently. And now, in addition to raising two incredibly intelligent and fierce little girls.

Maria (01:54.894)
I run two businesses and I write books and I advise companies on their leadership and talent development. That's just amazing. I I think the first question straight off the bat, which I normally start with is what do you like about reading? But for me, I'm going to adapt it for you. So not only what do you like about reading, but why reading? I mean, you've come from New York and the CIA and you think reading is not the next step for that. No, it's not an obvious next step at all.

There are some days where I still ask myself that, not because there's anything wrong with writing, but because I do miss New York so much. So why writing? Well, first when I moved here, I was in London, which was a more obvious next step. But my husband is a Berkshire native. And when we got married, he was still living here. And so I moved in with him. So was pretty mundane as to how I ended up here. yeah, cities are definitely my thing. Yeah.

well, the good thing about Reading, obviously, one of the many things is that it's so close to London as well. And actually, as you and I were talking about before we started on the podcast, there, you know, in the time that I've lived in Reading, it's gotten so much better. There's so much more life. There's a greater sense of community and me as a total outsider, you know, being able to find these little niches and pockets of creativity, of art, of great food culture, coffee culture, all of these things. And then the wonderful people and the proprietors you meet along the way.

It's really made it feel home and I don't actually feel like I want to run back to city living anytime soon because it is, I've got everything that I need right here. Yeah, it's got a nice balance of the countryish with the Thames, but then also, like you said, the community and our Cavisham is great for community. Sure is, yeah. Definitely. So the book that we have in front of us, if you're listening to the audio version, you can't see, we've got Rupal's book, From CIA to CEO, which is a great title, by the way.

I love this book. If you can see it, then it's a bit dog -eared with all my post -its in, so apologies for that. there was a lot in life I really interesting. So what section have you found after speaking to people once you wrote it, have people really resonated with or spoken to you about the most, do you think? Well, I'm going to ask you that in a second, but I will give you, and I just very recently sort of put a straw poll out there. There's this concept of tactical ignorance.

Maria (04:17.547)
which I go into some depth about in the book, and this is both a sort of a mindset performance tool, but also a practical performance tool. And the idea behind tactical ignorance is that yes, ignorance on its own is a terrible thing, and none of us should ever strive to be ignorant, but tactical ignorance, that qualifier can be really powerful because what it means is being very intentional and careful about the inputs that you are letting in.

and equally all of the inputs that you are choosing to ignore. So from a mindset perspective, the example I use in the book is when I was 26 and sent to an active war zone, my role was to be the first woman civilian briefer to the force our general in charge of the US and international forces. And I remember at the time because I am

even today to some extent, the type of person who is very odd by title and rank and hierarchy. And I knew that if I went down that rabbit hole of studying all of the stars and the stripes and the ranks of the people around me, it would be a distraction. And so I remember very clearly telling myself that, know what, I'm going to tactically and intentionally choose to ignore

that stuff. I'm not going to study it. I don't come from a military background. I'm not going to do the work of learning what all of those things mean because I know it will psych me up and it'll keep me from doing the thing that I am there to do, which is to deliver the best intelligence briefing that I can. And I use it in so many big and small ways now because so much of our external performance and even sort of our experience of our performance is managing the head game that we're playing, you

And for me, tactical ignorance is a really great way of cutting out all of the noise, all of the distraction, the atmospherics, the stuff that's not relevant, and tuning and choosing to tune in to the relevant inputs, the signal from the noise as it were, and the things that you are there to do. And there are many other ways that I've used it, you know, in a personal context. I remember when I was first having kids.

Maria (06:33.646)
I was, and for both of my pregnancies have been what is horrifically called a geriatric mom. So I was over the age of 35 for both of my pregnancies. I was 36 and 40 when I had my two kids. And again, at the time, I remember saying, you know, telling myself, I'm not gonna go down that Google vortex of looking at all of the risks and all of the challenges of what it is to be an advanced maternal age mother, because I can't do anything about

I'm going to go on a low information diet and tactically ignore all of this stuff and the nonsense and the, know, the sometimes quackery, sometimes just misinformed opinions about what it means and what the risks are. And instead, I'm going to only listen to people who are qualified to give me advice, which are my midwives and the doctors and the professionals. And then also my own good common sense and intuition. You know, I know myself, I know my body, I know my lifestyle. I'm not going to distract myself by...

by obsessing over something I can't control. And in those two instances, it really changed and transformed my experience in two very different, but also two very vulnerable contexts. And I think technical ignorance is a way of just dealing with all of the stuff we are bombarded with on a daily basis, whether that's information, know, noise, WhatsApp, emails, all that stuff. Not all of that is worth taking on board or even paying attention to.

Or if it's some of the more internal stuff around, know, I'm going to choose to ignore who the people in the room are and how important I think they are, whoever else it is, because you don't have time to waste on that kind of stuff. I love that part. Yes, I really liked that those stories that you told. And I think Tactical Inclusions for me, that was a really powerful chapter. What I got from the book, I think as I mentioned to you earlier, not any particular individual chapter, but just the concepts overall that when you want something life, you have to be so intentional. It's not just.

Go out there, have a bit of passion, meet the right person and it falls into place. You've got to be so intentional with what work you're doing on a daily basis, who the people around you are, what you're actually doing to head towards that goal. There were so many parts of it. It's not just one thing and it's known about who you are as well. So for me, that was really, really informative. I'm so pleased to hear that. Yeah, and it's funny, I just today, don't know, Instagram must sort of know my mind. There was a clip of Oprah.

Maria (08:49.664)
saying something very, very similar where it's, know, most people don't even know what it is that they want. So if you do want something, it's not enough to just want it, it's to make it very clear and crystallize exactly what it is, you know, how big, how much, how small, whatever the parameters are of whatever that ambition is. And then of course you have to take steps towards, I use the word intentional a lot in everything I do because it has to be intentional. So often we just sort of fall into

patterns or are nudged in directions that are not of our own choosing or our own making. And so don't, if that is something that resonates with you, for me it's never too late to stop, right? It's never too late to make a shift. And there are so many examples of people who very late in life, relatively speaking, have made huge transformations, not overnight, but by taking slow, intentional, consistent steps towards something that they have defined for themselves as a goal or an ambition or something that was important to them.

So even if you've lived the first 50, 60, 70 years of your life a certain way, it doesn't mean you have to keep doing that. But you have to know what it is that you are going towards, not only the stuff that you are going away from. Really powerful. So off the back of that, what common mistakes do you find that you see local businesses, entrepreneurs making, would you say? There are a few. I would say that one of the biggest ones is constantly comparing.

And this is true for individuals, but it's just as true for companies and organizations, regardless actually of what stage of growth, because I do a lot of advisory work for very well established multinational companies that have tens of thousands of employees around the world. And yet even they fall.

a foul of the same, again, what I refer to in the book, of comparisonitis, right? This idea of constantly looking around, what are they doing, what are they doing, how do I measure up against that, how do I measure up against that? We do it as individuals, we do it as leaders, we can sometimes do it as teams. There's something really powerful and motivating about competition, but the comparison can get really, again, it becomes another distraction, and also it's often totally irrelevant, because just because that company is doing that or that startup is doing that.

Maria (11:01.47)
even if you're in the same industry, well, you're not them. So what they're doing is completely irrelevant. Yes, you have to be aware of generally what they're doing, but not obsess over it because you have your team, you have your values, you have your budget, you have your market, you have your talent, have all of your things are unique to you. So instead of wasting time comparing and trying to be something else or somebody else,

make the most of what you have got. And it's really hard to do. And even now, I still sometimes have to catch myself, not from an organizational perspective, but from a personal perspective, not comparing myself to other authors or not comparing myself to other thought leaders or how many followers does this person have. Because we all, by nature, kind of do it. But one of the things that can really help to flip that from, god, I'm just going to never compare again. That's not realistic, right? Is to put it in its place, comparisons, have a

sometimes, but to not let it take up too much of your time and attention. And then lastly, to reframe it as something that can be informative. So yes, if you admire that person's growth or that company's customer service or that other organization's growth percentages or whatever it is, don't just leave it at that, wow, I wish we were them.

What can you do? Is there best practices that you can take on board and adapt to make relevant for you? Are there actions that you can take to close that gap between where you are now and where you want to be? It's fine to compare, but I call it comparisonitis because it can become a disease of both the mind and of your performance if you give too much weight to it. So use it as an opportunity to learn and pretty much nothing else. And then just, again, be tactically ignorant about all that other stuff.

That's really interesting. What I really like about that is when you said before about how we tend to compare ourselves to each other, but we need to be really self -aware because if you're comparing yourself to a business who maybe is very hot on social media, but that is not maybe your forte. Maybe your forte is to network in person. There's no point going down that route. Instead, you're aware that you are better networking, you could get there via a different route. And I'm so glad that you pulled that out because

Maria (13:14.778)
So many people think it has to look a certain way, right? well, know, social media is the hot thing or AI is the hot thing. So we need to double down on leveraging that. Well, yeah, maybe don't be totally blind to technology and how you can leverage it, but also look at what's gotten you success to date. You know, in my own business, for example, it's almost like you read my mind. I can sell out events. can sell, you know.

hundreds of books, thousands of books, when I'm meeting with people in person, engaging them in person, I am less good at that, and the numbers prove it, doing that through Instagram, for example. Because that's just not where I'm choosing to focus my time or my attention. I don't pay a lot of attention to my social media profiles. I pay a lot of attention and invest a lot of effort into doing the best I can when I'm in a room full of people, because I love being in a room full of people. I love the energy of being physically with other human beings.

that engagement, that conversation, et cetera. And so all of my, most of my book sales have come through word of mouth or people seeing me speak at events. A lot of my company work, the projects that I do with organizations has come through referrals from people who've either worked with me and sort of tell others about me or those who have, win that same company and they'll, hey, we need to bring you into another part of this organization. Because I know that's my magic is in person, right? It's not online.

So I leverage that as much as possible. I spend a lot more of my time and effort and business development, you know, sort of budget as well as efforts on doing as much in person as I can. And yes, I use social media where and when possible, but I don't try to become an influencer when that's just not who I am. I think this actually leads nicely into something else I wanted to ask you about, which is how can local businesses increase their visibility? I'm assuming then it is, as we said before, to find, to understand themselves, to know what their strengths are. Would you say that's?

I think that's a part of it. And look, just because you think it's a strength doesn't mean you don't have other strengths. yes, it's important to know your strengths, to know yourself, what you're good at, what's worked in the past. But also, and this also equally applies to me, and I do this, I work at this, to try other things, right? Because you never know. You never know what's going to work. You never know what's going to resonate. So much of business success is just constant practice of trial and error.

Maria (15:31.884)
or trial and getting it right and then tweaking and adjusting things and not just saying, okay, again, what got us here isn't necessarily what's gonna be what gets us there. It might be, we might not have to change a whole lot, but at least be willing to learn and constantly try. Doesn't mean that you're running from, know, flitting from one thing to another to another to another, but always leave some room for experimentation. And I think that is probably the best way I have found.

of staying true to your core, to who you are as a person, as an individual, as a company, as the culture you want to create within your organization, but also being realistic about you don't always have all the answers. You don't always have it all figured out. And we all need to be growing and willing to learn and try different things. And so leave room for some of that, however you can. I love that. So what strategies have worked well for promoting your own business? I know in the book you saying in the early days that you were there on the phone and wondering why isn't that

anything happening and it does take a while. It's not as if you make a call one day and instantly you've got a million pound deal. Yeah. So what's worked well for you over time? How has it changed from those early days to now? you have you do something different or is there something different you would have done? I don't think many people will like this answer, but for me the reality and for many others that I know has just been consistency and persistence and a lot of what

that entails is just a numbers game. So as you said in the beginning when I was growing my business, both of them actually, it was constantly pitching, being on the phone, putting myself in front of potential clients or customers, having conversations, not with a pitch, but just putting myself out there, planting lots of seeds, doing all of that cold calling, that cold pitching, that cold introduction, and then sort of following up, following up, following up, following up. And...

The reality is most conversions don't happen after the first, not even after the second. You have to be, you don't want to become a pain in the backside, right? So that some of there is, there is this sense of, okay, again, for me, this is an arbitrary number, but this is what I found works for me. I will try someone three times. And if I don't hear from them after three times, I'm going to let that one go because the first time, you know, we all get busy, things get lost in your inbox. The second time it's just a gentle nod, a nudge or a prod and just, Hey, by the way, did you see this? And PS.

Maria (17:54.188)
as a recipient of many of those sort of unsolicited emails or messages, there are times where like, yeah, that sounds really interesting. I want to follow up, but then life gets in the way or you get distracted or something else happens. So I always appreciate it when someone follows up with me at least a second time. But, and for me, my personal limit, both in receiving and giving those sort of follow -ups is three, because after that it starts to feel like you're being hounded if you're receiving those, or if I'm giving it, it makes me feel a bit like, I'm being annoying. So that for me was what I sort of landed on.

as far as how many touch points, much follow up you need to do. But every single time I have secured a new piece of business, whether even now or 10 years ago, it has been through the follow up. It was never through that first connection or that first conversation. So follow up, play the numbers game. And by that, all I mean is you're going to have to reach out to hundreds of people and potential clients and customers or whatever it is that you're looking for.

before you start building that momentum. most people don't wanna stay in it that long or for them it feels a bit uncomfortable. But for me the reality is it's just numbers game and you gotta be willing to put yourself out there and not in a way that's pushy or in your face or like, hey, buy this thing or do this, whatever. It's about understanding the other person. Do you have something that can fill a need that they have, a service, a product, whatever, and then communicating the value. It's not about the sales pitch. For me,

the way I have made my piece with quote unquote sales, because it feels really awkward and really icky, is never, hey, here's this thing I have, you should buy it because of X, Y, or Z. It's always, so what's going on with you? What are some of your challenges? What are some of the things that you're grappling with? And then following up with, well, here's some of what I can do to help. Or even just proactively sharing value. When you really understand your customer,

you start to get a feel for what it is they care about, what it is that they want, what it is that they need. So you can proactively just put it out into the world saying, hey, here's some of the things that I've learned that might help you in this way, or here, and you could do this more broadly or just one on one. But as you add value and share value, then people will start to think of you of like, OK, well, next time I need that thing, or next time I want to do something like that, I'm going to go to Maria, or I'm going to go to Rupal. doesn't.

Maria (20:11.842)
have to be in your face like, buy this, this, this, this, this. It can just be a very casual like, hey, here's how I might be able to help or here's what I've learned or here's what I can do. Let me know if it's ever of interest or even not even following up with that, but just saying, look, this is what I do. And people will find you if they resonate with your message and what you're doing. But you have to be willing to put in the legwork. And for me, was about, I mean, you know, I'm not going to say like endless years of just pounding the pavement, but.

It took about three years for me to really establish my professional sort of reputation and profile and along the same time, at the same time sort of building, planting those seeds. And then slowly they started to come to fruition, not every single one, but then building on that momentum and then building on it and building on it and building on it to the point where now almost all of my business comes from referrals and word of mouth recommendations from other clients.

But in the beginning, it was me putting myself out there. So it will shift and change over time and how, again, you have to pay attention to what's working, what's not working, et cetera. But at the very beginning, it's going to be a numbers game. I love what you said about hundreds. I think people don't put that into perspective because you call 10 people every once in a while instantly thinking this is never going to work. So three years and hundreds are the two things I wanted to point out there. And also, I really like

your approach when you said you asked them about them first, because I get those calls. I get so many cold calls and cold emails and I hate them. I hate them because they don't care about me. And it's exactly the same information that you get. You get someone saying, hi, do you want to increase the number of your leads? And instantly on the phone, like, no, no, because I know exactly where this is going. Cause they're going to say,

or they say, I love what you've done on your website or your website is amazing. And you think, no, you've not even looked at my website. Exactly, exactly. I think that's the thing. It's time consuming because you have to customize each approach to the person and get to know the other person and how you can specifically help them. so you have to, like you said, I get those same messages like, I love the work you do at insert company name here. And sometimes it even says, quote unquote, insert company name here because they haven't bothered to customize it.

Maria (22:28.866)
But clearly you've just cut and paste that to me and about how many hundreds of other people you sent it to, right? Whereas if you said, hey, RuPal, I read this piece that you wrote on CNBC and this is what resonated about it to me. Here's how I think we could build it into, I don't know, a campaign or whatever. I'm just making stuff on the fly. That all of a sudden will catch my attention because you did your homework. I think doing your homework.

always pays dividends, not necessarily in every single instance, but in general, having that mindset of I'm going to prepare, I'm going to make an effort and do my homework. People can tell when you have made an effort and people can just as equally tell when you're just another number to them. if they're going to respond accordingly. Yeah. So bearing in mind, obviously your approach, your personal approach, and it's taken hundreds. So I just want to highlight that for everyone because you're right. It's not a case of, you know, you're not going to get there.

the chances are you will get there, but you just have to be consistent over years, which is why I always think of business and things like that, it's more of a marathon. Do something and then just keep it, whatever, if it's just one call a day, just have something and then just keep it going. And don't even think about it until, you know, I mean, for the podcast, for example, I'm not even thinking about it until I get to six months. And then I'll review and then maybe a year, but I'm not even thinking about that. I'm just focusing on getting it out there first. Exactly, because there is, again, there's something,

There's a lot to just be said about consistency, but also not just banging your head against a brick wall for the sake of being consistent, right? Like you said, every so often review what's working, what's not, maybe get some outside insight and perspective from somebody else who's done something successfully in that same field or industry or in that market and say, hey, look, this is what I've been doing. These are some of my results. Is this normal? Because you also want to be able to get some sense of

Your statistics might not be representative of the broader statistics in the world out there. So it's always useful to get a sense check from a few other people, not just one other person, but a few other people who you can say, okay, well, yeah, you're on track or no, actually, you know what, by this point in your podcast or in your company, you should have really seen some traction on these things or just again, to balance out your own experience because...

Maria (24:45.824)
It's useful to know that and those who are a bit more successful have been doing it for a few more years. You want to leverage that experience and expertise so you don't have to make that same mistake and you don't have to learn the hard way every single time. So, I mean, that reminds you of obviously what you were saying in your book in one of the early chapters about your ops team, which is have the right people around you. So think of the general direction you want to go in. And then if it is podcasting or writing an article, whatever you want to do, make sure then you try and put people around you who can help you.

get there. It's very intentional with the people you have around you, because there's no point trying to get there and the people around you aren't, they may be your family, they may be there to love and support you, but not to get you to that goal, because they don't have the expertise to do that. Exactly, exactly. And I think that goes back again to this idea of, excuse me, of being very careful and intentional about all of the inputs that you're letting into your life, you know. And I use the analogy of computers. There's, in the early days of computing, there was this

this thing where people would say garbage in, garbage out. For those of you who were born in the 80s like me, you'll remember GIGO and garbage in equals garbage out. And the same is true for us. If we're letting in garbage advice, insights, garbage knowledge, garbage information, that is all we're gonna be able to spew out is rubbish. And so with whatever it is you're trying to build or grow or do, whether it's a company or a book or a podcast or something creative or whatever, anything, make sure

The inputs, that's the conversations you're having, the books you're reading, the podcasts you're listening to, the people that you have around you are all feeding you stuff that is going to help you bring that ambition into the world as opposed to just defaulting to, well, these have been my mates my whole life, or these are the people that I enjoy hanging out with. That's fine. But they are not going to help you go in the direction that you want to go in, or they won't necessarily, because they might not, or probably don't have that experience or that vision or their ambition.

So doesn't mean you drop all of your friends and you suddenly just make new ones, but limit the amount of time that you are spending with people who are keeping you stagnant, keeping you, or even holding you back, and maybe look to invest more of your time with those who are going to push you, stretch you, and contribute towards your progress, your growth, your ambition. You're not using people. It's creating the context around you, because context creates.

Maria (27:09.204)
Everything, everything. And this has been proven in psychological studies, it's been proven in many scientific studies, peer pressure still affects you even when you're an adult. So make sure the peers you have around you are quote unquote pressuring you in a productive direction as opposed to keeping you stagnant. And now you've done a lot of interviews and talks over the years. So it's something I really wanted to ask you is what are the most

interesting questions do you think you've received over the years and the answers to those? gosh, man. Has anything really stood out for you?

You know, probably, and I feel like this is such a shame because in the past couple of days I've given some interviews where I was really pleasantly surprised at having not been asked those questions before and now I'm totally drawing a blank. I think the kinds of interviews I, I'll sort of reshape this question a little bit, but I really enjoy, the types of interviews I really enjoy is where there's no pretense.

and there's no facade around who the host wants me to be or who they think they are. There's no performance. It's just a conversation between two interested people and just exploring and going wherever the conversation goes as opposed to being like, okay, well, let's talk about how amazing you are. Let's talk about how invincible you are. I mean, that's not useful to anyone. I think for me, I really enjoy

conversations that are a bit more vulnerable, that are very honest. And we can go down that route now if you would like. Because I think what surprises me and makes me a little bit sad is a few things. When people will meet me and they'll be like, my gosh, you're so nice for someone who has had your career or has your background or is your pedigree or whatever, you're so, whatever it is. And I just think, well, thank you. Obviously, it's a compliment.

Maria (29:10.542)
But it also makes me feel a little bit sad for the world that we're at a place where the assumption is that if you are intelligent and accomplished and have certain accolades or whatever it is that people expect you to be horrible. You know what I mean? Like, why should niceness or kindness or just basic good manners be something that you lose along the way to your success? And it hit me yesterday actually in a conversation that I was having because I really

don't treat people differently based on who they are. And for example, every day I drop my daughters off to school and nursery, I am just as kind and chatty and warm with the groundskeeper or the janitor as I am with the head mistress. Or when I'm having conversations with other CEOs, if we're at a restaurant,

I am just as courteous and thankful and considerate of the waiter or the person at the coat check because there really is this false sense of hierarchy and the fact that we as a society think that there are different rules for different people or different, we should expect different behavior from different people. I think it's total rubbish. I fundamentally, yes, people have different qualifications, different levels of wealth and education, blah, blah, blah, fine, whatever. That's just.

the reality of life, but doesn't make you fundamentally a better human being than somebody else or worthy of more respect or worthy of more consideration. And so I wish that people expected me to be nice and weren't surprised because then it would be like, yeah, you can be smart and nice. You could be successful and also considerate. You can be a little bit goofy and a CEO. And I think there's so much, there's so much...

there are these very bizarre archetypes that we create of like a CEO looks like this, a mother looks like this, a CIA officer looks like this, an Ivy League educated person looks like this. I am all of those things. And none of those things, the way I actually am and look, are very often in opposition to what people assume any of those titles are. And so I think for me, it's just about...

Maria (31:28.994)
being who you are and not feeling like you as an individual or any of us has to perform a certain way to justify our titles or our roles or our labels, but also society as a whole, we should expect more of everybody, right? Just basic common courtesy, basic good manners, basic just, yeah, we're all equal human beings. Yeah, so much to unpack there. The first thing is that, yeah, I found actually that the people that you think, they are too busy, the people that are busy out there doing things, accompanying things,

they're normally the ones that are actually willing to help and talk to you. So it's, people think that, but they never actually reach out to these people. I think it's just an assumption. So that's the first thing that sometimes they're the nicest people because they've got there for a reason, because they know how to treat people, how to talk to people. So that's one thing. And also about treating people differently.

they're the people you want to talk to. You want to talk to the waitress and then you want to talk to the chef and the cook because everyone will see something from a different perspective. You can talk to people on a certain level, CEOs, whatever, but they're going to see a situation totally differently to someone who has got a different job or a different outlook. So you want to talk to anyone and everyone because it's only going to help enhance the way you view things. And I think, again, without making it overly sort of like cliche,

I think everyone has something to share with the world. We all can learn from every person we meet, and it might not be like a life -changing discovery, but everybody has something. Every single human being on this planet has something that they are an expert in or have a unique insight or a unique approach to. So if you have the opportunity, why not take it? But even more than that, let's just change what we let.

people get away with, the kinds of behaviors that we just brush off. well, you they're just being lads or they're just being, you know, they're just, you know, a rich asshole. Well, the two don't have to come, they don't have to come together. as with everything in life, what I've learned and I wish again was more widely acknowledged and known is that there are selfish poor people, there are selfish.

Maria (33:32.844)
rich people. There are very kind aristocrats. There are very kind, you know, sort of poor people. Every single demographic that you can think of has the full range from asshole to angel, you know? yet we create these narratives of like, all those people are like that, all those people are like that. And then there's a lot of overlapping layers around class and gender and all of the things that we all know, right? But fundamentally,

you find what you're looking for. So if you go out into the world expecting, for example, all rich people to be assholes, every time you have a negative interaction with someone who you assume to be wealthy, you're gonna remember that. Versus if you go out into the world looking for examples of like the opposite of that, potentially successful people who are also really kind, I bet you will probably find the same thing. And it's just a question of just reframing that expectation, that assumption, and acknowledging that, again, that spectrum of asshole to angel.

exists in every single demographic you can think of. So don't assume. Well, I think like said, for humans, one thing we're very good at is finding patterns, but it's finding patterns with our biases. Yes. Exactly what you've just said, because we're very good on thinking, everyone thinks this way. But that's because normally online we're hanging around with the same sort of people. So we think everyone thinks that way because the people in our circle think Exactly. So yeah, really interesting. But probably to take it in full circle really to bring back something we were doing at the start, talking about interviews.

what sort of questions do you get asked the most? This probably isn't gonna be the interesting questions I imagine, but are there other questions that people? Always about the CAA. Which I understand, right? That's not a surprise. But it's usually around what was it really like to work there or why did you leave or how did you get recruited? I imagine those three is sort of that full life cycle of like, how did I get there? What was it like? And then why did I leave? That's what everybody really, really wants to know.

And it's not, I don't mind talking about it I'm happy to answer it now, who would be of any interest to your listeners or to your audience. But yeah, I appreciate that's why part of, people, most people will not come across their day -to -day lives and run into someone that works at the CIA. So I can appreciate why that is. Those are the questions that come up again and again, because it's a, you know, it's a world totally sort of shrouded in secrecy. Most people don't have access to or any insight into. So, but yeah, those are probably the questions I get the most.

Maria (35:56.386)
Well, I'd ask you how can your CIA background help people? obviously, bringing back, like I said in full circle, your book, From CIA to CO, I think that very clearly outlines it. And in the book, you've just got some beautiful stories, but then you then link it to how it's helped you.

that experience has helped you. And then obviously you're sharing it with everyone to how that can help everyone in their daily lives and to get really focused on their goals. So yeah, if you haven't read the book, it's going to be on the Charlotte's landing page. So please have a look at it. And if you are going to buy it, buy it from an indie bookshop or don't buy it from Amazon. I mean, you can, mean, Amazon's great, but yeah, I do love supporting indie bookshops and we've got some amazing ones here in writing. Yeah. Thank you. Alex in Four Bears is the one that comes to mind. Any others that you know off top of your head?

I always go Alex and Four Bears because obviously Capricorn writers are in there. Yeah, same. He's my go -to. So now you've put me on the spot. Well, actually, yeah, fair enough. Actually, maybe writing only has that one, right? Because I think... I'm going to research indie booksellers in reading and put them on the page. if you know, if your audience knows of any, please, you know, sort of respond and let us know. Please point them out. I just, I love supporting indie businesses of all stripes. Books, because I'm obsessed with books and works. But yeah, mean, Indies Everywhere is sort of...

You know, I like, as a good American, I always like sort of supporting the underdog, right? Everyone is an underdog. Yeah, we all should, right? Why not? Like Amazon doesn't need any more of my money, so. So, is there, finally, is there a key takeaway you'd like to leave for everyone with something we've mentioned or something different? Yes, I think, you know, so much of what I talk about in general, both in the book and in many of the conversations I have is around

challenging assumptions because we all, whether we're thinking about our personal lives or how we're operating within our teams or how we lead our teams or run organizations at every sort of level of like who you are and the different worlds in which you operate, we carry a lot of baggage, a lot of assumptions, a lot of noise around what is possible, what is impossible. And all I would say is.

Maria (38:05.036)
for every single one of those things that you feel is holding you back or keeping you stuck or you just sort of have internalized to be true, do yourself the favor and question those assumptions and look for information or data to support that, but also to disconfirm it because we all are carrying around stuff like, you know, for me, I will give a very personal example, for the longest time I carried around this idea that

well, I'm from New York. And I thought, well, in the part of New York that I'm from, nobody ever made anything of themselves. So who am I, just because of that whole small town girl kind of thing. And yet, again, when I did that same thing of challenging those assumptions, there's a couple of things. One, well, I found that there were many success stories that even I didn't know about the folks who came from that part of the city. But also that idea of like, but.

just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean you can't be the first one. So for everybody out there who is like waiting for that perfect role model to show them the way or to show them how it's done, maybe you have to be that person for first and foremost for yourself, but also for other people because this whole notion of like you have to see it to be it, I actually don't think it's true. That's not how human beings, yes, we need that sometimes, but that's not the only way to make it happen. Sometimes you have to be it so that

others can see it. And that for me is something that I try to live by every day. Anytime I find myself feeling stuck or like, I can't do this. like, well, let me prove to myself that I can do it. Right? Let me, let me just challenge that assumption. Let me do the work instead of taking it as a given and test that assumption and see, okay, well, is this true, factually and objectively, or am I just making up the story in my mind? So yeah, challenge the assumptions and all of that stuff that you, yeah, that's just sort of weighing you down. Rupa, I mean.

I think that's a lovely place to leave everyone on. I mean, I could talk to you for hours, but I know you're a very busy lady, so I'll let you go. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate your time and everything that you've done. Thank you. It was a real pleasure.