Maria Lloyd (00:08.103)
So, hello Nicolette and welcome to the My Local Marketer podcast. Thank you so much for coming on. How are you doing? I'm fine. Hi Maria. Thanks very much for doing it. No, my pleasure. And thank you very much for inviting me to your lovely home. And as our viewers can see behind us, we've got some lovely props from your theatre production that we're going to be talking about later, which I'm really looking forward to.

I mean, the bits behind the scenes are, yeah, a treat for later anyway. So my first question is, could you please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Well, I've been a professional artist for about, well, 30 plus years since I left art college after doing a degree in painting. But I've always done sculpture, animation, textiles, glass. You know, I went to a pottery class last night. very, love all sorts of creativity.

But I've also always written alongside my visual arts. I've always done poetry, short stories, and I've recently started combining all the elements to make books and theatre. Yeah, mean, needless to say, as we'll become apparent during this podcast, you are definitely multi -talented. Thank you.

So before we get into the juicy stuff, I say, how long have you lived in Reading for? What do you like about living in Reading? been here for quite a while, haven't you? Yeah, I sort of lived between London and Reading for a while because I met my husband and moved up to Reading, but I was still teaching in London and then I got a teaching job in Berkshire and moved up. But I've been here probably about 18 years altogether.

and full time for about maybe 15 years. And I think I'm such a Londoner when I even I grew up in Surrey, I've say found it hard to leave London. How am going to cope without the theatre and the undergrounds and art galleries and all the ends. But Reading has got has ended up having a lot to offer that I wasn't originally aware of. And also you're very near to Oxfordshire.

Maria Lloyd (02:18.45)
and Henley and beautiful countryside. So you've kind of got the best of both worlds and you can still go to London. So it works really well. So yeah, it's a great location. Now we'll all jump straight into your book now because obviously I think there is so much to discuss as we become apparent. So your book is obviously the pink one in the front here. If anyone is watching the visual version.

So that is the Princess and the Pink Peacock. The was the Pink Peacock and the play is the Princess and the Peacock. slight adaption.

So for the book, what was your experience like writing and illustrating and then publishing your book? mean, that was quite a journey for you wasn't it? was. I mean, I think my style of painting for years and years and years, people would say, you you should illustrate a book. Your book would make really good illustration. You'd make a very good illustrator, but actually it wasn't entirely accurate because the fashion for illustration was very different at that time. It was more of a kind of almost primitive looking.

If you think of something like Pepper Pig or Maisie the Mouse, my style is almost considered quite static and antiquated. But so I didn't get anywhere actually trying to get illustration work. And then I thought, well, I could write my own book. And I did do an adult education course in illustration, but it was this fantastic tutor that was actually in Caversham.

while I was still living in London. And I learned a few tricks of the trade, but also that was a pre -digital way of working. So the things I learned there didn't necessarily translate 100 % to the modern way of making things, but it did help in just the terms of the layout and how things would look on the page and working with the text. So, but then I thought, well, you know, might as well do this. And I...

Maria Lloyd (04:15.022)
It took months and months and months and I found that so much on the way. but I was, I just didn't have the staying power to get it published traditionally. I sort of got a few good responses saying, were lovely, we love your work. And, you know, the story's not quite doing it for us. And I just gave up after about two rejections, went back to painting. Since learned that, you know, 50 rejections is not uncommon.

So ultimately I went down the hybrid publishing route with a company called Austin McCauley. And also again, I didn't do any research, didn't do any comparison. In hindsight, I wish I'd looked into what was available, what the legal aspects of it were, the financial aspects, but I just wanted to get the book out there and I certainly achieved that. that was good. That was really good. So well done on that.

What I found really interesting is obviously like I said, you illustrated your own book, but there are quite a few people I've spoken to who asked me, how do we find someone to illustrate the book? So how would you recommend someone who would can't draw? If you want to work with an illustrator, I mean, it seems incredibly daunting projects. And I think what I've found in the past is people have said, I've got a great idea for a book, will you illustrate it? And I've wondered if it will ever go anywhere.

But because now you've got these options of self publishing on Amazon and if somebody's, if you've kind of done that research and you know how you're going to publish it, I think an illustrator would be much more keen to get involved with it because also in effect you're paying for a service. if you, quite often people would say, I've got this lovely idea, I'd love you to illustrate it. I can't give you any money. But if you think about that in terms of other

people you might employ, they'd probably just say no way, wouldn't they? you could, I mean, also I didn't even know how much an illustrator would get paid, but I illustrated my own book and then I didn't get charged for the illustrations with Austin McCauley. So that saved me £600. So that's interesting. is that a sort of, so perhaps doing some research into how much an illustrator would charge.

Maria Lloyd (06:36.672)
you're going to not pay them. Maybe they would get something out of it like a book credit or a percentage of the profit. So I think you've kind of got to sell it to the illustrator. I have heard of some really lovely things where families have done something. They've got some in their family who's good at drawing and they want to write a book and they've made a work together for their family. And because you can now publish so easily, I would perhaps look into that. It depends what your...

Earlier we were talking about what's your motivation, what's your goal? And I think you need to know that before you start. yeah, great advice there. Now, obviously that was the first part of your journey, actually getting the book and publishing the book. What then made you want to take the book and put it into a theatre production? mean, that would not normally, I think, be a second step. would publish it and go, I'm finished.

So what was your motivation and how did you do that? The thing is, I'm sure a lot of people listening will have been in productions when they were at school. I expect if you're my age, you'll have done Joseph's Technicoloured Dreamcoat and you'll have been in the school play. And I absolutely loved all that when I was growing up. And also as a teacher, I did a lot of the productions for my school and I wrote them myself.

And I did them as what's called a jukebox musical. So I took existing songs and I wrote around the songs. Maybe we did one about traveling across America and Australia. And I did a history of Christmas carols, I researched all of, even had a Roman one in it. And I thought, you know, what's missing here is actually the songs. And also obviously there's licensing issues with using existing music royalties.

you know, it's not really fair to musicians. So I thought, well, you know, I love music, I love writing, I'm a poet. Why don't I write my own songs? I'm at the, I can pick the tune out on a, I've got grade one piano, so can pick out a tune on a piano. And I basically just sang the songs to myself, picked out the tune on the piano. And then I thought I really need someone to make these good enough professional quality.

Maria Lloyd (08:49.27)
And I thought, who do I know? And my brother in law is an absolutely brilliant musician. He's always been in choirs and he's very good with digital music. So I just, we were actually at Jane Austen's house, funnily enough. said, I don't suppose you fancy, you know, arranging some music for me. And my niece is a chorister at Portsmouth Cathedral and she's got absolutely gorgeous voice. I said, I don't suppose Evelyn would like to sing them.

So, and also my daughter is very good at singing. she came, we went down to Southsea where my brother -in -law lives and he's got his recording equipment and we put the tracks together. And so interesting enough, as the production evolved, we had to change the tempo to something that was quite folk, had to become rock and roll. Then we had to write an extra version of something. the really brilliant thing with my brother -in -law is he could just change it. He's like, I'll change that into a samba.

these are things there's no way I could ever have done it. So to find people who can help you is absolutely key if you're doing something like this, it's a real collaboration, but that's the joy of it as well, because everyone brings something else, something new to it. So it becomes more than the sum of its parts, it becomes this creative force that is really quite surprising sometimes.

I mean, I love that you took your own advice there. you didn't have that skill yourself. So once you'd done the basics, you went into the family. I like the fact you sweetened them up with a trip to Jane Austen's house as well. So using the family skills to take that step further and maximize on the expertise, which is great. Now, I know that was one challenge and we've spoken before. Could you outline a few of the other challenges with translating it and how you overcame them? That's really interesting. Well, was, my

What my ambition and my vision was to have professional actors performing it, because I've been to Edinburgh Fringe Festival many, many years and I've seen a lot of children's theatre. So I could visualise how it might look. There were some really gorgeous pieces I'd seen. But people kept saying, this is a children's, how can you have adults? This is a children's book. Why don't you get to school to do it? So...

Maria Lloyd (11:08.782)
The school I was teaching at the time was Eastwick, sorry, that's my previous school did put it on with 50 children performing it. And so that was really, really exciting. And they were absolutely brilliant, but it still wasn't quite my vision. So I didn't know anything about, know, simple things like, you know, if you've got a cast, you can't really pay 50 actors if you're going to do it in a studio theatre.

And also that's quite a massive outlay. In terms of practicality, transporting things, smaller cast is easier and the cast can play multiple roles. So I did actually get some mentorship from the Watermill Theatre in Newbury, a really nice chap called Aide Morris, and he said, can you rewrite it for a smaller cast?

Also, a lovely chap called Max Hutchinson from Scoot Theatre, who I saw performing in Henley, was incredibly generous and gave me lots of ideas. He's actually been in the Cursed Child in the West End, so he's been quite busy. So the generosity and the kindness of people helping someone who doesn't know what they're doing, that's been a really big experience for me because some people are very dismissive and there was a choir...

And she was saying, no, I don't use digital tracks and these are too difficult for children and just sort of put a full stop on it all. And I could have just given up, but I thought, well, I know children can sing it because I've just had 50 of them doing it. So things like that, there's some people are very, either skeptical or it doesn't work for them. And I thought what I needed to do is find a theatre company who would do it for me. But quite often they've got their own.

repertoire, they're doing their own thing and you're not tried and tested. They don't know who you are, whether it's any good. So it's quite hard even to get past the first hurdle. And what I realized in the end was I need to get my own actors in in effect for my own theatre company. So that was a learning. And I was thinking about booking the theatre before I even had a cast or had done a rehearsal, which obviously is not really very practical or sensible. So first thing to do is to get a cast.

Maria Lloyd (13:28.162)
do a read through and even that, how are we going to do that? Where are we going to do it? And actually the, my lead actress said, let's do it on zoom. Yeah, then you can be anywhere in the country. And so you read through the script, listen to the songs. They were all sort of swaying along, singing along. thought, is a good sign. And then we arranged to have a rehearsal. One of them knew somebody at the Kingshead Theatre in Islington. So we used that as a venue because they were based in London.

But then I found one I preferred in Waterloo, opposite the Young Vic, that was in a bookshop theatre that was absolutely amazing. So was all such a, I mean, you could write a book about just the experience of it, because it was so charming and the bookshop had a cat and it was all just so lovely being in London again. So it's been like a real journey. And I've learned, I didn't even know how to hire a rehearsal room or anything. And now I do.

Yeah. It's actually throwing yourself into it and doing it. And what I found interesting when discussing with you before is how obviously when you showed up, you'd already made half the costumes. So lots of the props, because obviously you're very creative and arty, you made a lot of the costumes yourself. You made everything, even the ones that the backdrop, everything that we've seen here. So I know that was an experience for you, but could you outline a couple of the challenges that you ever came, like you said, with translating, just things with making a costume, but then realizing

the changes and what you needed to do actually to make them functional? So there is actually an analogy with the book because I didn't know that you were supposed to get the text 100 % right before you did the illustrations. So I merrily did all these illustrations for months and in the end there was about six of that didn't fit with the story when I edited it. So the same with the script, I made all these props like a peacock cage and a birthday cake and

And then ultimately they didn't fit because the play was adapted. So those things that I'd spent loving hours on weren't even necessary, but then I've kept them and recycled them. I think because it was a small cast, needed to be a lot of quick changes and character transformations. They had to really signal that this is a new character, even though it's the same actor. And one really interesting thing was the dancer, who was the pink peacock, became transitioned into a puppet.

Maria Lloyd (15:51.916)
And I was thinking, well, how are people going to know it's the same character? So I made the hat that is here. I adapted a cat by taking a puppet apart. And then I got the same puppet. so that when the dance became the puppet, it was obvious to the children that it was the same character. So she's dancing along with her beautiful, I should pick it up now, her beautiful pink peacock wings in the back.

So she's just doing all her shimmying This will be a video clip, by the way, on the landing page because it's what was lovely was that, you know, when she, even I didn't realise the back needed to be more interesting, so I had to some peacock eyes on it. But when she becomes the puppet, which is for the purposes of the play she has to, then the puppet has got to pop up behind the screen, still reading as the same character. let me demonstrate that while you keep talking into the microphone.

And kids love a puppet basically. So Maria's gonna show the children we're all there and we're saying can you see the peacock anywhere? Where is it? Let us know if you can see it. there he is, hello. And so in the meantime, that's the actress who's doing the dancing. She then was another character by there but she could still be the peacock because she could stick her head up over the top. So yeah.

But there's something very good. The other thing about this puppet was I needed a pink peacock and such a thing does not exist as a puppet. So I had to sort of take it apart, cannibalise it and sew it back together again. Because originally it was sort of rainbow colours, but it became a pink peacock. So I absolutely love it. One of things I love is making something into something else. Which was quite key to the performance, I think.

And on that note, actually, so we had the whole premise of the story is that the princess only likes pink and she's absolutely determined that she's going to have a pink peacock, even though such a thing doesn't exist. And it ends up in a very chaotic market scene. paints and dye and feathers go everywhere and it becomes a rainbow peacock.

Maria Lloyd (18:10.484)
So, yeah, she's quite nice because she can sit with the hat there. So at the end, it's this absolute sort of chaotic, colourful party. But as you said, holding that up, because actors are doing this, you've got to make this a quick transfer. So you've got these elastic. the elastic off. And she had these behind, they had a very small changing space behind the scene. had seconds to go from being a princess to a scientist, to a king, to a market trader. And they were so amazing.

And even they were going, well, do I need to be staged left or staged up? Right. What's my motivation here? I thought that was really funny, you know, but actually these technical things, because the screen actually was so intricate integrated in the plot and the screen actually changes very quickly as well. just switch the screen behind. And this is all part of the action was that you could change from a seaside to a market and then to

This is when all the paint went everywhere. so, this is great, sorry. So at the end, there's this very explosive, colourful scene and things flying everywhere. it was a really, because actually that came from one of the actors said he'd seen a play where they flipped the scenery over. I thought, how could I do that? So really, because it's like a book, because the story is like a book. And it goes from a palace to a lemon.

to Wheatfield, to a forest, to a seaside, to a market, very, very quickly. But the screen was, the way they did it was also beautifully choreographed as well. So they'd be going, come on, come on, we need you to change this, don't forget, you know. So it was kind of, I suppose it's called breaking the fourth wall, isn't it? So they would come out of character to do the sort of slapstick changing of the screen. And that was a really, that's, think something that

is part of theater that you wouldn't get in a book, you know. And then we talked about, there's another really funny bit on that note, because in the book, the peacock flies over a wall. So in the script I'd written, peacock flies over the wall. I was like, well, how are we going to do that? And I was thinking, maybe it'll go through a gate. said, how are going to make the gate? What's it going to work? And I said, let's just not have a gate. So then in the end, the peacock squeezes through a gap in the wall.

Maria Lloyd (20:33.142)
And then we made that part of the comedy because the princess had to sort of really sort of squeeze herself in and squeeze through the wall. But unless I'd had a wire and very big theater, I don't know how I'd have got the peacock to fly over the wall. that was, that was, I mean, that's kind of obvious when you think about it, isn't it? But when you're adapting a text, it's worth thinking about. It's amazing. mean, to get to the marketing side, how did you actually promote once you had done all this?

effort and put all this in. How did you promote your event? Well, I think my horror, was sort of lying awake, you know, no one's going to come and all that. And actually the, I use South street theater in Redding, which is absolutely gorgeous theater. And the good thing as well, they've got, as well as their main theater, they've got a studio theater and it was perfect because it has complete blackout curtains all the way around, but they market it because they're owned by the council. They market it through that.

the site, is it what's on Reading? know, which is very, very good. It's amazing if you're ever doing anything. But also I looked where are their notice boards. So I went around Henley, I went around Caversham, went around Reading and I, anywhere that you could put, there's a notice board in Caversham that was very good and they'll put things up for you. It's in the precincts, don't know if you've probably seen it. Yeah, it's Terry's, isn't it? Yeah. give your posters to them. they put that up and they also change, you know, and also in,

The auto lands were very sweet as well. at the time there was a charity shop that's now closed down. They put it up for me and there's notice board outside milestone in Caversham. But also, what I wish I'd realised, there's a huge notice board in the shopping centre. You know the one, the Barts it used to be called. Gosh, it's the shopping centre that's got TK Maxx in.

Do you mean Broad Street? Yeah, it's opposite Jelly. Do you mean the one opposite Jelly? just made waffle one. I was fine. So there's a massive notice board there and everyone would see it and I didn't know that was there. So I wish I'd known that. But the other thing I did was I also got the Henley Sanders did an interview with me and they put it a massive, huge thing about it. So that was great. And I put it up in the Witherspoons in

Maria Lloyd (22:50.866)
in Henley as well, but also words of mouth. I contacted all sorts of people I knew, like people who were involved with Brownies and schools and former colleagues and someone I know who does the drama. She does a drama festival in Woking and she came and that was lovely. So lots of effort. Lots and lots of unreal, because I'm not at all pushy person that I had to really get out of my comfort zone.

But I was, my nightmare was that, no, because I've been to wonderful, wonderful things with a very tiny audience. think such a shame. And also going to Edinburgh Fringe, sometimes you'd go, you'd be the only person in the audience, you know? And so I think the other thing as well, I was advised to start small.

So the theatre seats, probably about 40 people, the studio theatre, but standing it'd be 60, but we wouldn't have had room for the set. But I did two performances, so we actually got oversubscribed. So ultimately that was 83 people over two performances in one day, which I was very pleased with, you know, and full house both times. So I had to put extra seats out.

That's amazing, well done. I think that you've given some excellent tips there. So first of all, I think from your experience, it's you need to tap into expertise of people around you. You go to groups, contact theaters, contact actors, because they will have a different perspective. So tap into all those networks around you, because they will help you translate something.

And also the networks, like you said, with the promoting tap into things like What's On Ready? And they already have the audiences. So don't start from scratch. Tap into and connect with people who already have the audiences, the expertise in order to promote it. I think that did save you a lot of time. So well done on doing that. Now thinking about the next step, that's obviously been your first run through, which I know you funded yourself, haven't you? But you have got plans to do it again with funding this time potentially now that you've done it once as a run through. So where we're at at the moment is,

Maria Lloyd (25:07.148)
We got, while I was actually researching South Street, I'd already had an offer from, which didn't come until after I'd booked South Street, but I was so keen to get it done. I'm absolutely thrilled that I did it, you But the theatre are offering what's called a box office split. So you don't pay anything upfront. They host you and then they take a percentage of the ticket value and then you get the remainder.

So obviously the risk is massively reduced because you already know you haven't got to have that outlay. So potentially you could even make a small profit or break even or whatever. And I think the way you would make it profitable is you would then have another theatre booked after that because, and then if you're a bit brave, you go for a bigger theatre. Cause a lot of the upfront financial cost has gone into actually creating it and

hiring the rehearsal space, hiring the... But once the actors have got it, the same actors could then perform somewhere else the following weekend. So I think that's, it's, you know, it's quite a risky business. And I really made sure that I, I'm not a big risk taker, so I made sure that I had got the money saved up to underwrite it.

Funny enough, the way I made the money was by selling paintings and sculptures. So was really good because I got a big sale from someone in Brighton bought a piece from me and that paid for about half the actors wages. And I thought, there you go, the arts, looking after the arts. And then I did, part of Oxford Sculptor Group as well and I sold some at Windsor Art Fair. So that went into the fund, but I would never do anything without that underwriting. I mean, you could get someone else to underwrite it for you.

But you know, it's, also I think, cause I saved a lot of money, I bought things on Vinted and I've got things from charity shops and I made things myself. Cause all these things add up. yeah. But for your next steps, are you looking for Arts Council funding? did, I play was really, that was really interesting as well. Cause I did apply for Arts Council funding. I made it to the eligibility stage. I was, it was in review. I was waiting to hear back and they said, you know, you're completely eligible, but

Maria Lloyd (27:20.802)
we've got a lot of projects applying for a small fund and some of them applications were stronger than yours. But what they wanted, and this is completely daft because they wanted a track record of the participants. know, my actors are West End actors. And, you know, obviously my brother -in -law, he's organised all sorts of concerts and very, you know, experienced and I didn't put any of that. And also they said they wanted

dates already in the calendar. Because I was saying I was going to do workshops for it and they said, well, who are you doing it with and where is it? And now I think, well, now I've got a theatre and I'm going to do workshops there. I could actually say, I'm going to use this actor who's currently in, you know, Hancock's After Hour, The Lost Tapes. This actor's in the Craig Revel Horwood's production. This actor's in Dinosaur Live.

And also that I've got the dates, 22nd of February. I've got the venue, Riverhouse Barn and Walton on Thames. I know I'm doing a workshop, so I might have another crack at it. Yeah. But still it's very, very, very competitive and it's quite a box ticking. If you don't even know what the boxes are you supposed to be ticking, it's quite difficult. And now I've got more of an idea.

I think so. I think you've given some great tips there for anyone else who's looking to get out. It's funny, like you said, make sure it's as streamlined as possible. They want to give it to someone who's done the research. They've got something in place. They've got people behind it who are, like you said, they've got the credibility. So that's what they want. So if you put something out that's streamlined, then make it hard for them say no. specific that they know it's a safe bet and that they're not going to be funding something that doesn't come to anything. yeah, that's the thing.

Yeah, I was incredibly daunted by that. It takes days to fill it in. It's massive. But now I've done it. know what, as, as I was going through it page by page, I was feeling incredibly daunted, but now I screenshotted all the things I put in. So that should make it a bit quicker. But again, I think the thing I was saying about making the money through the arts work, I think that's quite a good model really, because

Maria Lloyd (29:39.372)
you've got a fundraise somehow. And if you're in charge of your own fundraising, then that's actually quite good, isn't it? You know, if you have a way, like if you teach or whatever, you can build up your own funds. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. The other thing, I think the final question I wanted to ask you was obviously because you are multi -tented, you did so much for this production.

How do you stay focused and get things finished? mean, I'd be on doing something, then get distracted by something else. How do you stay focused? Well, think with the book, was, I literally went off the boil and put it on a back, it was in a portfolio for 15 years before I got it published. Cause I thought I've had enough of this now, you know, but with the production, I had loads of people depending on me. I had some people who were going to have to get up on stage and do something in front of lots of people. And I had a theatre that I'd paid for and I had,

deadlines and it was absolutely terrifying. So I'm very good with the deadline, I think I would say. So I was up till midnight sewing with bits and pieces and I work really well under a bit of pressure, I think. So think that tends to be the same for a lot of people. It's like when, you know, people are at school, they could only do it when they knew that the exam was just around the corner. Yeah. So is there any, any other

final thoughts or tips you'd like to leave our listeners with? I think, you know, one thing I would say is when you're working with people, would respect their expertise because the lighting technician, lighting and sound technician at Soundstead was so brilliant. And he was saying, so what do want me to do? And I said, well, you're the expert. And he got really taken up with it and he made it even more beautiful.

and he was up ladders fixing lights. And I was thinking, well, I don't know anything about lighting, so trust the experts and be respectful and kind and very grateful to people who help. But I think I was thinking, I did a little thing on Instagram about dream big, because I think a lot of us have these dreams, one day I'll write a book, one day I'll do this. And I think, know, life is short.

Maria Lloyd (31:51.456)
If it's your dream, then you'll find a way to make it happen. You you've got other people to help you do it. That's what I'd say, I think. So if you've got a dream, do it now. Put a deadline on it. Make sure people depend on that deadline so you know you'll do it. And just say, I really like your thoughts there on respecting people's expertise. And I think that translates very well through to jobs because normally when you're a job, tell you to do things and you just do it.

but if you enabled someone to make it their own and create something that would, like you said, they'd invest so much time and effort because that's their baby effectively. If you give them something to make their own. So, totally agree with even with the actors because they're used to being very much directed and we workshopped it and I listened to, I made a lot of changes and one of the, Gwithian, who is my only male actor actually, he said,

we've made something really beautiful. thought, isn't that lovely that we've made it. It's not just me. It's all the sum of all these people and the lighting technician and the theatre even. it's made a beautiful, and that was actually, that's the theme of the play. Cause it's all about inclusion and everyone invited. And so it was perfect really. So.

Yeah. I think so. Well, thank you so much Nicolette for coming on. I thoroughly enjoyed this. too. Yeah. I look forward to having you back for part two after you've done some more performances. thank you very much.