Maria Lloyd (00:00.194)
Hi there, I'm Maria. This week's episode is with Leanne and Josh from Under2K. I thoroughly enjoyed recording this episode with them. Not only is their knowledge and enthusiasm for renewable and solar energy clear to see, but I also love how Under2K have been able to include younger generations, like Josh, in their mission. Leanne and Josh share some great advice in this episode. Please do get in touch and let me know what you found most useful. Now, without further ado, let's jump in.

Hello, Leanne and Josh, and welcome to the My Local Marketer podcast. Thank you so much for coming on. How are you doing? Good, thank you. Doing good, doing good, Wonderful. So obviously we are here today in Under 2K on Woken and Road, which is a beautiful spot. And obviously you do quite a bit here, don't you? So first of all, if you could just introduce yourselves and Under 2K for everyone. Yeah. So hi, I'm Leanne, I'm the shop manager at Under 2K. Under 2K's mission is to help people live under two kilowatt hours.

per person, per day with help of portable solar generators. You might be able to see the Jackery down here powering up the entire podcast today. Our retail shop is also a social media studio, which is strange when you say, try to explain that to people. How can a retail shop be a social media studio? We have a podcast room, we're sat in it now, which is also a studio room where we film live streams. We have a, what used to be the podcast room is now a chill out room.

a big event floor space and an outside workshop. Our content creation studio is to help people learn how to live under 2K. So we have lots of content creators running around making lots of content all day every day. And that goes out on TikTok and Instagram. YouTube now, no? YouTube. All of them. Some YouTube. And you've got, do we still do LinkedIn? LinkedIn. And LinkedIn. Yeah. Even though think that's probably one of the most unpopular aspects. We've got three new followers today. On LinkedIn.

Well done. Okay, so that's the end Josh, you are one of those said content creators. introduce yourself. indeed am. So hi, my name is Josh. I'm the podcast producer for Under 2K and I've been doing that since what like February. So I don't know how long after the shop opened that was. I've always listened to podcasts, especially the one I always make reference to is the basement yard. I don't know if either of you two have seen it. There's these two guys, best mates since like primary school, since they were like six and they're now making podcasts in their 30s.

Maria Lloyd (02:23.822)
And it's just amazing. And I was just like, yeah, you know, it seems cool. I did it. And then it's just nice to obviously speak to the people in store. You are the first person who I'm speaking to who's not part of under 2K and it's great. And I hope to keep this going forward. I also do, what is it? Social content host. That's my other quote unquote title. host. Yeah. So like, especially with Ahmed, I do a lot of stuff with him. We go out into reading. A lot of mine is more going out into public.

and speaking to people like we did our Soda Street Smarts on Tuesday, that actually went quite well. We got 3,000 unique viewers on that, which was actually really good. We would just go out and ask people what they know about energy in the middle of Reading. And it's quite interesting to see how people react, especially when I was wearing our inflatable dinosaur I did a Halloween special. We went out and I was wearing that.

in wedding. Look out for that on TikTok. Yes, please do look out for that because it's I shouldn't be promoting it because it's embarrassing for me, but it is really funny. Definitely do. that but the embarrassing content is normally the content. Embarrassment tends to lead to more entertainment for people for some reason. I don't know why, but people like to see people getting embarrassed. I'm going to have to talk to you about that later on like, know, separate podcast to conversation got so many questions to you about that. So obviously, I

We're based in Reading, you have a very big part of going out, you go into Reading, so what do you both like about Reading? I've worked in Reading for years now, years and years now, and I didn't actually realise until I started in this role how many community groups there were. My previous roles weren't really event-based, it wasn't really going out talking to the community, it was all very enclosed and just tell people to buy, buy, buy. there's the...

So many groups, woodworking groups, crafting groups, LGBT groups, just simple socializing groups have been on Eventbrite about a thousand times. I look on it least twice a week now for online tutorials that you can watch and events to go to in Reddit. There's a lot. It's a really, really big buzzing social hub. You couldn't see that before. No, I think that is one thing why I chose to start my own personal podcast and

Maria Lloyd (04:43.758)
it's going to take years. Just one episode a week, that's like 50, it's going to take years and years. So yeah, I've got a job for quite a while. And Josh, what about you? What do you like about Reading? I think for me, obviously, I haven't really, obviously I've got in touch, I've been in touch and I've experienced the different people in Reading and I've spoken to them and they've came and interacted with me, whether we were playing Smash Bros in the street or interviewing them.

It's just nice to be like, even just, like if you just stand there, like we were standing there with the TV set up and you're just walk, just seeing everyone walk past, see so many different people, like no matter who you are, where you come from, you can find a place in Reading. It's the same with where I live, Bracknell. It's like you get people from all different walks of life. It's quite cool to see, but no, the shopping is, I mean, all of this that I'm wearing today, I bought in Reading. So I don't know if that tells you about how much I like shopping in Reading, but everything here is.

I don't think I've had that response before so I have to get the list of shops from you afterwards. Now, as you said before, Leanne, under 2K's mission is to get everyone to live under 2 kilowatts. Could you just go into a bit more detail on that mission and why it's actually important? Two kilowatt hours, if you don't know a kilowatt hour is a measure of energy, you can look on your electricity bill and it will say you can use 200 kilowatt hours this month, we're going to charge you, you know, 600 pounds.

The average individual in the UK consumes about 2.7 kilowatt hours. So, to live under 2k you only need to lose 0.7 kilowatt hours, which, interestingly, would only be two and a half boils of this portable kettle I have here. This is a 300 watt kettle. Your standard kettles are a lot higher, they're around 1200. So I highly recommend getting a little portable one. But if you used 2 kilowatt hours from the grid,

That's fine. Anything above, we recommend solar generators. Using the sun, it's free, it's sustainable, and you can use as much as you like with free sustainable energy. There's approximately 41 million adults in the UK that use electricity all day every day. And if every single one of them dropped that 700 watts, that 0.7 kilowatt hour of usage, that would be such a massive difference on the planet and our wallets. I mean, you've got,

Maria Lloyd (07:10.466)
I keep getting adverts that I'm sitting at home watching Hell's Kitchen and you keep getting this advert from EDF Energy about how they do their supercharged Sundays. So they'll reward you with free energy use on Sundays. So depending on how much less you use during peak times during the week. So say you're, I don't know, doing your washing during the week and you put a washing machine on during peak times. Not only are you costing yourself more, but you're also using so much energy. then companies now are starting to

Advocate especially us as well advocate for using less of that peak time energy especially now with obviously energy bills rising which we keep talking about If you use less during peak times and there are companies that are rewarding you for your sustainability with free energy to use on a certain day Which is EDF supercharged Sundays, and I just think it's just great sort of it's a good incentive like rather than just being like Yeah, you should use less giving people a reason

Why? And almost giving them a reward. Ours, I guess it's like sort of having that peace of mind to know that you are part of the future. Yeah, it's just a one big community really. I mean, and there's so many little hacks because if you charge a Jackery up on Sunday when it's free.

you can use it for the week and then you get more grids and I'll give you more free energy on a Sunday so you can charge up to and then you use that for a loop of just not paying. That's what me and Arvid spoke about wasn't it? I'm sure everyone would love the reduced or free electricity. Imagine having free energy all week like don't pay anything. How can you say no? My Ivo bill came through yesterday and it's not pretty and I actually use some of these daily.

I think it's just people not having the time to educate themselves on them. just go, they turn on things that they need to, they don't have time to go and research kilowatts. No, they don't know how much a kilowatt hour is price-wise. 22 points of reap yesterday, I think it was per kilowatt hour. Yeah, as you said, it's a really valuable mission. So hopefully we'll be educating a few people here. And I know I've certainly paid more attention to kilowatts since I first found out about you and came here. Now, as we said before, you...

Maria Lloyd (09:26.762)
a lot of effort into getting younger people involved in undertookay which is great so could you just say why and how you do this i think most groups i know community groups as well and they're struggling to get young people. Reading university they are their sustainability department and the amount of staff they have on that are all about sustainability and changing the world and things like that is fantastic. Having people from

The uni come and do content for us and spread the word on social media. They're the young ones, they're the future. So if I was to sit and preach, don't use these kilowatt hours or things like that, not that we preach, but we do educate, they're less likely to listen to me. They're actually more likely to listen to their peers. So having the young ones help each other understand and teaching them about energy and things like that is really important. We reached out to the universities, the schools, the colleges.

told them what we were doing and put jobs out on Indeed and they came. They seem to be really, really invested and interested in climate change and energy and energy usage. It is trending, I mean think since Greta Thunberg coming out, she was encouraging all of her school friends to go on strikes with her. It's a big topic now, they're interested, we said we're here and they came, which is really, really lovely. It also helps if you know someone who...

like Josh, then who was really good on camera and talking. And he's great at teaching other young people too. Do you have anything to add, Josh? If like we said, these other community groups, how would you recommend they get younger members involved in them? Because we're a social media studio, I think the main way that, so like obviously, so like I scored the media studies and you do realise that the main...

like the biggest consumption of any form of media by anyone below the age of like 35 is social media. So by loading social media up with this information, vital information to change their opinion, not only is it the best way to get to them, it's the way they enjoy the most. And by the way we do it, we pay attention to trends. We make sure that, you know, we're appealing to things that's currently on their minds. So say you've got the subtle foreshadowing trend, for example.

Maria Lloyd (11:49.74)
by using that trend, not only does it then appeal to the algorithm by then being like, yes, we'll pump this out onto people's page because you followed this trend. It's something that they can relate with and that they've seen and they're like, I love this trend. it's about energy. okay. How cool is that? Maybe I'll have a look. And then they get more and more engrossed. They've watched our entire video and then the algorithm says, you've watched the whole thing. you've given it a like. You must really like this. Let me show you more. So then they see so much of it.

And just because of how smart social media is in terms of showing them things that they've seen before to constantly pound into them, like, yes, energy is like, you need to be paying attention. It almost makes our jobs easier by using social media because social media sort of does the outreach for us in a way that if they see it, then I don't know, people who they have added will then start to see it because your friend's seen it. Like I so many things like your friend has reposted this and it comes up on my for you page on TikTok.

So it just shows that like, not to say that our job is easy, it makes it easier because of the way that social media works. So I feel like that is the best way to get to people nowadays anyways, through social media. I keep seeing Joel's posts now, Josh's friend Joel. Because he makes loads of like, he's a songwriter, makes loads of songs. And I said to him on the podcast, can you write a song about us and energy? He goes, yeah, sure. While we're still on live on the podcast, he goes, right, I've done it.

I'm like, wow, okay. He's not got the biggest platform, but as Tesco say, every little helps. So even by having smaller creators, then as we begin to grow, they can grow alongside us and then they can, not only are we educating them about energy, but then these smaller creators who are interacting with us, they then start to gain their own platform as well. And eventually they might even gain influence and say they start using a Jackery.

to start making some of their content and then they can branch off from us and then it's like, okay, well, we've helped you, you've helped us. We're great friends now. That's the goal. Yeah. Well, I know I'll be changing my social strategy. As we said before, the real mission is the sustainability side. How do you manage the mission with the actual business side with we need to make money? I mean, you can't make everything in the business sustainable, but we try our best. I mean, one of our main mottos is reduce, reuse.

Maria Lloyd (14:14.36)
Recycle though if I am buying something for the studio or for the shop. I'll try and frift it first I'll try and look on Facebook marketplace I'll ask people if they've got one they don't want anymore the front of our store where the Portable and power stations are displayed It's just old pallets and I threw some old netting over it. It looks okay. It looks quite nice The display isn't the feature the feature is the product you don't need to go and buy

big plastic or metal displays when you can just use a palette that's already been made that's going to get wasted. And there's also things like our actual bins that we use. They're recycled cardboard bins just with the liner in. So we didn't go out and buy five plastic bins. I bought five pieces of cardboard and turned that into a bin. It's being a bit thrifty and a bit savvy and

less plastic. Now there are things we have to have that are plastic. For example, the podcast unit has plastic on it. Fortunately, you can't buy wooden podcast units at the moment. If anybody is interested in making one, talk to me. There's always the unavoidables. Like, I'm not related to the business side, whatever. But it's just a matter of there are some things that you can't avoid. But the whole point is doing as much as you can, until there is no more you can do.

I feel like there's probably still more we can do but that's discussions for later when we come across these things and new innovations are made and then we're like we quite like that innovation or we might even make our own innovations. mean our main source of being sustainable every day is we plug in to the power stations after charging them off the solar panels. The only things we really have to run currently off the grid are the actual lights. That's it.

No, it's just the lights that are built in. And even now on the podcast we're doing sat here, we're actually plugged into a power station. These lights aren't on, they're all off. My laptop, when I'm here all day, every day, there's always a power station next to me, always. Now, I know you gave some great tips there for businesses to be sustainable. Did you have any other tips while we're on that?

Maria Lloyd (16:31.714)
You're the tips, Applied Appliances podcast guy. Any sustainability tips, Josh? Sustainability tips. It's just a matter of cutting down on plastic use, cutting down on using excess energy or when you are using excess energy or you have an excess of it. Me, Mark and Ahmed were talking the other day and was, well, Mark was telling us like how some wind turbines can generate you money. And I know it sounds crazy, but when they make an excess of energy,

rather than letting it go to waste, some wind turbine companies used that. So if a company was to, for example, install wind turbines around their warehouse, not only are they powering the warehouse sustainably, they can also generate money if they make any excess energy. I saw Jed's video and it was about like, if you were to plant, what was it, two square miles,

of solar panels. Put solar panels in a two square mile radius anywhere on a bit of land in Texas, it will power the entirety of the US. yeah, the US. Wow. So just two square miles of solar panels. Any company could do that. Be like, you know what? We've got all this extra land. Do we build a new office or should we put some solar panels in to make our office more renewable? then, look, we've got two square miles of land. You know what I'm going to do? Our solar panels. now everyone's paying us for our renewable energy.

solar panels, static ones on your roof that you can buy now. If people do generate excess energy, they sell it back to the grid. Businesses do like to make money. Now moving on to challenges. Leanne, what challenges have you faced in getting the store up and running? The store is still in progress, hopefully refit in January.

It's less about the actual store itself because it can run as it is now, apart from the stuff that you must have. The legalities like fire extinguishers and fire alarms and things like that, which is all done. That side's kind of easy. It's not easy. It's not hard work, but it's easy enough. What's hard is, and the challenges we've had the most of, is events and really kicking off our event calendar. Trying to get the word out that we are here. Come to see our events, join them online.

Maria Lloyd (18:52.374)
We've sold a fair few tickets, but we've had a few not show up and it's just trying to get the foot in the door. So that is one big challenge. I would say the website was also quite a challenge building that and getting leads generated to convert into sales. That's happening now, which is great because the sales fund all the rest of the stuff we're doing. All the education and hiring, all the creators to go out into the world and tell our story. So I would say events and website was difficult.

What has worked for you in that case? they haven't, what has worked for you? Socials, social media. And actually mostly you'd think, I mean, we're very, very TikTok inspired and TikTok led and we want, this is how to get the message out. The younger generation talking to the younger generation and teaching them about energy. Cause it will be so beneficial for when they're older, when they do start paying their own bills and things. I would say at the moment, Facebook and LinkedIn is where we're getting the most traction from.

the other businesses and the community as opposed to direct customers. Brilliant, I suppose you have to start somewhere. Now, Josh, to you. What challenges have you faced in podcasting? Because obviously you are the content creator since February. A fair few, to be honest. I'm not sure I can relate. I mean, there's just been a couple of times when you have software that doesn't work. mean, if I could make my own software, great, but I'm not that smart.

But sometimes software doesn't work or we had an issue with this and the date was set to the year 000. I'm thinking, where's my episodes gone? Oh yeah, I Because I'd lost them.

But I put it on my lap. I literally watched myself put it on my laptop. I watched it record and I'm like, where is it? Turns out it was set to BC or something. I don't know. And it was just like, I don't think this was around in BC. And if it was, it was made of wood. Exactly. And then obviously when I started, I was tasked with also making TikToks. We realized very quickly that that was not my area of expertise. I don't have the mind like Jed does, Zash does, Mia does.

Maria Lloyd (20:59.874)
to make TikToks. I don't have that creative mind. No. I'm not like, yes, I can't think. I was trying to appeal to trends, but then it's just a matter of like, well, once I've done trends, it's like, what do I do for myself? I could write a great story for you, that's cool. But I just making a TikTok, wasn't quite my thing. So focusing on the podcast and then going out into the public, I found that I'm quite good at speaking to people. Your thing is talking. Yeah, so I've realized that.

Doing short form content wasn't quite my niche. I feel like having interaction is more important to me. Whereas like when you're making TikToks, you're talking to a camera. It's like, I'm not talking to someone. Having interaction with people is where I then start to not thrive, but I guess that's the correct word. Yeah, not so thrive. think you're thriving. But yeah, the challenges were just sort of getting my feet set.

I'm sure you've experienced as well, getting your feet set, knowing what to do and then running with the wind once you've figured out what you want to do. I think it's a very valuable lessons there. I think it's also a good point to mention obviously just because you have someone young in your family doesn't mean automatically they'll be gifted with TikTok. Different people just have different skills. don't automatically give your 12 year old your TikTok business account because you don't know it. Doesn't mean they'll be able to do it. On a positive note,

What have you learned and what have you really enjoyed since you started? So much. There's been more goods than there has bads. But I feel like the best part is learning, doing science in school or geography. You get taught about sustainable energy and stuff, but that's the basics. You get told, wind turbine does this, a solar panel does that. What different ways you can make renewable energy? I'm being told it, but I'm like, okay. But for me as a person, what would I gain out of that? And that's what they don't teach you. Whereas we tell you,

If you try and draw energy from a geothermal plant, you'll gain this, this, this and this. Or if you have a wind turbine, you'll gain this, this and this. Having solar panels attached to your house, you'll get x, y and z. It is a simple concept, but it's obviously quite hard to execute sometimes. But just something that's so rudimentary and something that we should have been doing for years. I would have thought that we would have realized we can harness power from wind before.

Maria Lloyd (23:21.422)
we realized that fossils can do it. the wind was already there, you to dig for the fossils to save the dinosaurs. had to find the fossils, had to find all this stuff and then realize, oh we can use this for energy. But you had wind the whole time, you had water the whole time, you had volcanic activity the whole time, you had the sun the whole time. Not everybody knows what the definition of energy is, the simple definition, which is... Well, a lot of people, like when we do the interviews, they say, oh like...

When you're running around you burn off energy. But I'm like, okay, so what's a scientific? And they go, oh, oh, I don't know. It's the capability to do work. It's simply lifting this piece of paper up off this desk and putting it back down. How capable was me using energy. Everything is energy. And then people, when I say, what is energy? They go, oh, isn't it that thing like energy can't be created nor destroyed? I'm like, yes, that's what energy is. But then it leads to that pathway of

Okay, so there's energy in the wind. What can you do with that? You're telling me it can't be created or destroyed. So if I take the energy from the wind, I'm not destroying it. What can I do with it? And they go, uh... Yeah, because they're not taught it properly. It needs to be something that, especially with the whole climate change thing and how big it is now, I'm so surprised that it's not, I mean, I don't know, I should probably be asking my teachers if it's something that they're now teaching in like PSH and stuff.

But I'm just so shocked that it's not something that's still classed as science only. Yeah, but it's not. It's lifestyle. It's livelihood more than just more than it is just science. to gain energy is the life skill that everybody needs. So why is using a solar panel to gain energy not treated the same? mean, it's just how it's how you should live life is sustainably because otherwise

what you give to the planet and the good you do for the planet you will acknowledge and the thing that makes me sad is when I see the videos of the polar bears now and when they're majestic and then now they're so skinny and they've lost all their fur because of how hot it is they've evolved to not have their big coats and they're really skinny and it's like how did we let it get to that? The whole point of us is to show people that and be like we can change this, we can fix it.

Maria Lloyd (25:47.278)
Not everybody is motivated by the polar bears, which is a shame. should be. Yeah, mean, it's by the polar bears. The people that aren't motivated to learn because they want to save the polar bears, for example, is save your wallet. I think you've learned some great things there. And as you say, think one of key things is getting the messages out in front of the right people. I know we've mentioned audiences already. I don't know if you want to add to that, but Josh, how would you say we get the message?

in of young people. You mentioned socials before. Is the best way to communicate if I wanted to get a message out to young people in Reading, is it just socials or are there other ways that I can do it, would you say? I feel like socials is definitely the best way, but that's not to say that there's alternatives, to be honest. I mean, you can still go out and do it on the street, like when you have like these street vendors or something. I see so many people standing there and they've just got this rack filled with posters.

All we could do is just go out into Reading and stand there with a rack filled with our flyers or our event calendars and be like, we are under 2K. Come and have a someone was volunteering to do that in our next event calendar release. I mean, it's recorded as well. And it's recorded, yes. So have, have incriminating evidence. But it's just some things that are so simple. So long as you're in a spot like,

Reading Town Centre where you know it's filled with youth. There's no point going to, I don't know, what's a town that doesn't really have many young people? Or like... country village somewhere. Yeah, going to a country village or going and standing on the side of a dual carriageway and being like, I'm the two gay! You will not recommend that. No, we do not. Because they're not going to see you and it's dangerous. Go to where they are, go to the groups, go to the universities, go to the colleges, go to where they are and don't get in front of them. just make sure that

you're putting out your message. If you go into Reading, I that place is probably filled with thousands of people every day and then you just stand there, hi guys, I'm Josh from Under2K, here's what we do. And then they'll be like, oh no way, or you've got the massive electronical billboards in Reading in the Oracle. It's like, we could try and have an advert on there and it'd be huge and they'd be like, ah, isn't that interesting? And then they'd be like, okay, well I'll look them up. I mean, it's what I do. If I see something that interests me, I'll look it up.

Maria Lloyd (28:09.71)
So it's a matter of if they don't like the exact thing you're saying, you can say to them, well, we say they don't want to buy an Explorer 2000. It's like, okay, well, we don't have to give you something that's that expensive if you're my age, because I can't afford it. But we can say, you know, take a 100. It doesn't have to be expensive. That's what we need to tell people, especially youth. I know a lot of youth don't pay rent and stuff and you don't have those struggles of bills. Bet you will.

but you will. And that's also the issue. Not only is it trying to make you sustainable now, but then educating you on how starting and getting a sustainable mindset now can then make it so in the future, you're saving yourself from cost of living crisis or bills and like spikes in prices and stuff. Yeah. I love your energy. We're going to have to do like a collaborative podcast. In the vein of this being portable energy.

When the weather picks up again, and then you hear, just go and sit in town with the union. I said that. just podcast interview anyone who's walking past. I said we should just take some fold out stools, take this with us, hold the microphones in our hands, have that on the ground. Tell people to be like, hey, come over, we're doing a podcast in the street. They go, well, how on earth are you doing that?

And then all you have to do is tell them and that's how the conversation starts. And then like when we were doing Power Up Your Play, which we're not doing at the moment because of how unreliable UK weather is, like they go, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, we've just got a TV, power and it's sustainable. They go, how have you got power in the middle of the street? I don't see any cables. I'm like, well, if you look around here, it's this thing on the floor that's powering this TV and this Nintendo Switch. It you freedom. And I could be charging my phone at the same time as doing this.

And I could also be charging something else because of the amount of power ports that they have. It's like people need to start realising that it's not just like, yeah, solar panels. That's not the only way to be sustainable. You can be sustainable by having one of these, having anything that we sell. Yeah, it's a lot more diverse than people think. And that's important for young communities because they like to have options. Leanne, what are the goals for under 2K going forward?

Maria Lloyd (30:27.636)
So let's go big or go home is what they say right and the dream is to be the leading UK retailer of portable solar and accessories so things that you can charge off their solar generators things like water purifiers solar-powered fans anything else that can help people live sustainably

Well, to be honest, I think the fact that you are not just your retail shop, but you have the social media side behind is a perfect way to get out the message and to do that. So well done on that. think that structure is something that other stores, shops, retail, whatever could consider going forward. What drew me to under 2K in the first place was that it wasn't just standard retail shop because retail, retailers are shutting down every day. It's not okay. We need bricks and mortar. We need to see and touch and speak to people with permission.

And the way to do that is you don't necessarily need a shop full of people who come in and stack shelves and serve on tills when you could give them a camera and an internet connection and they can tell people about your product and your message and your meaning and they can go off in the world and do that they don't even need to be in the actual physical premises. So that's something for me that could help retailers. Is there a message that you would both like to leave our listeners with? Under 2k.com forward slash shop.

Well done Josh! I was going to say live life under 2k. yes and that. Live life under 2k. Stay green, stay clean. And if you want to learn more check out our website because Tabitha who writes our blogs has written so many brilliant energy wise Tab blogs are great. So if you want to know anything more about energy and you prefer to read, they're not long, two minute reads and they're really really interesting.

Well thank you so much both for coming on. Josh, let's have a chat, we're going to do something together and look forward to our next collab. Thank you for having us.